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Going Downhill Fast
#31
(10-16-2015, 01:26 PM)Instructor Wrote: [quote pid='478' dateline='1444996933']
"Christians don't kill" seems a fairly broad brush to me.  I've known plenty of Marines for example who I think are very strong Christians and have had to kill in the line of duty.

[/quote]
Point taken.  I'll rephrase if I may;  Christians don't murder in the name of Christianity.  I'll make the point again that anyone can call themselves a Christian and do horrible things in the 'name' of Christ.  But that begs the question of if they are actually a Christian.  Christ states that we'll know them by their fruits.  Furthermore we are commanded to love those that despitefully use us.  We are never commanded to kill/murder non-believers such as what Islam commands (I've lived in the middle east and my wife's family is Arabic (Christian Arab) so I'm quite familiar with Islam. 

A Christian may kill someone such as self defense, but that is outside the discussion.
Two thousand years ago wise men sought Christ, wise men still do.

Techniques are situational, principles are universal.

Fast as the wind, quiet as the forest, aggressive as fire, and immovable as a mountain.

He who gets there first with the most...wins!

Minimal force may not be minimum force!

We don't rise to the occasion...we sink to the level of our training.


Reply
#32
(10-16-2015, 01:13 PM)pennmartkd Wrote: Christians killing Christians has been addressed in good fashion that just saying one is a Christian doesn't make it so.  However going back to the Crusades and Inquisition Protestants tend to like to hammer Catholics.  What is often forgotten is that at that point Catholicism had a bit of a monopoly.   Protestants weren't even in existence at this point.   So like it or not, those horrible actions are part of our shared Christian heritage, not only modern Catholics.

You are correct in that Catholicism did have the monopoly prior to the Reformation (and for quite a bit after as well).  But the point needs to be stressed that their was a Christian church during that time that was not part of the Catholic church and indeed predates the Catholic church be several hundred years (the Catholic church didn't come into existence until sometime after 400 A.D.).  They claim to be the 'universal church' but it isn't backed up by fact or Scripture.  Greek Orthodoxy also claims to the be the original church (Orthodoxy and Catholism are two sides of the same coin).  But they are not and again this isn't backed up by fact or Scripture.  Case in point, both put true Christians to death.  If either were truly a Christian entity then we have a house divided and it couldn't stand.  Both are satanic organizations in Christian trappings.  Case in point:  the Madonna (Mary and little baby Jesus).  This is NOT Mary and little baby Jesus!  These statutes predate the birth of either Mary or Christ by about 2000 years and are found in other cultures outside the middle east.  They date back to Nimrod and Semaranis (spelling?) from the book of Genesis.  The woman is Semaranis and the baby is Tamuz.  It was a satanic pagan religion that survived and morphed into what came to be in Rome when Constitine issued the 'Edict of Tolerance' making 'Christianity' the state religion of the Roman empire.  What we had though was pagan 'churches' simply changing the sign out front but still keeping the same pagan traditions such as;
  • Purgatory
  • Confession
  • Madonna
  • Mary being a perpetual virgin
  • Infant baptism
  • etc
Two thousand years ago wise men sought Christ, wise men still do.

Techniques are situational, principles are universal.

Fast as the wind, quiet as the forest, aggressive as fire, and immovable as a mountain.

He who gets there first with the most...wins!

Minimal force may not be minimum force!

We don't rise to the occasion...we sink to the level of our training.


Reply
#33
To continue...

So what we have, from the perspective of the Jews, is suspicion towards Christianity due to all the atrocities that were committed in the 'name of Christ'.  That's how satan works, he is the father of lies and the promoter of division and deception.  We are the best and closest friend to Israel and the Jew which is why satan has gone to such lengths to sully the name of Christianity.
Two thousand years ago wise men sought Christ, wise men still do.

Techniques are situational, principles are universal.

Fast as the wind, quiet as the forest, aggressive as fire, and immovable as a mountain.

He who gets there first with the most...wins!

Minimal force may not be minimum force!

We don't rise to the occasion...we sink to the level of our training.


Reply
#34
(10-16-2015, 08:31 PM)Kong Soo Do Wrote: To continue...

So what we have, from the perspective of the Jews, is suspicion towards Christianity due to all the atrocities that were committed in the 'name of Christ'.  That's how satan works, he is the father of lies and the promoter of division and deception.  We are the best and closest friend to Israel and the Jew which is why satan has gone to such lengths to sully the name of Christianity.
Actually no we don't have suspicion towards Christianity due to the atrocities committed in the past, the problem we have is that Christians seem intent on converting us, that's where the suspicion lies. The constant telling us we need to be 'saved', that we need to 'find' Jesus. I'm sorry but non Christians really don't need to be saved or find anyone. You say that yours is the correct version of Christianity that the others are just 'pretenders' but that's where the nub lies, they say the same about you, each is sure they are the only way and the rest are wrong. The atrocities committed in the name of Christianity against other Christians is a far greater worry to many, such as we are caught up in Northern Ireland. You say they aren't Christians but each of them says that about others, you share a common belief yet cannot get on how do think it looks to outsiders? In the UK we have actually reached after centuries of bloody deaths a reasonable accommodation, we like our religions to be quiet and sober here, we don't like the shouting and weeping and wailing type of performances. Religion has no place in politics here, we don't know for the most part what if any religion our politicians profess, the quickest way for them to lose elections is to start quoting any religious belief. We don't have religious programmes on the television, they can be reached by satellite but they aren't British, I don't mean just that they aren't made here I mean it's not British to do all that evangelising, asking for money, praying for people etc. We, the British, look askance at all the religion come out of the States, as does most of Europe, we've had our days of Martin Luther, John Knox thundering from the pulpit and it got us bloody massacres, persecution and death of all those who didn't 'believe'. Jews weren't involved in Britain at the time, we'd been expelled in the 13th century and not allowed back until the 17th. We had Henry the Eighth and the Pilgrimage of Grace, Bloody Mary after Henry, Elizabeth, it goes on. Christian against Christian killing over each ones belief that the other is wrong. Each saying the other is not a Christian and fervently believing it. Each intent on converting others to their 'side', in Nepal Christians built a clinic and a school but to use these the Nepalese have to convert to Christianity, why? did not G-d make the Nepalese as he wanted them to be? Why this disrespect ( and the Nepalese feel this deeply I know) of their religion? why not build the clinic and school and say please use, no strings attached? We have another American Christian organisation here that goes into schools and wouldn't it be nice if you all made up shoeboxes for children in other countries  who don't have anything for Christmas, this is done gladly just the organisation which flies around in million pound jets doesn't tell people they put Christian literature inside these boxes afterwards and ask that children attend 'classes in Christianity before they receive the boxes! The past is the past, it's the present that worries us, we have 'Jews for Jesus' sneaking into Jewish schools giving out pamphlets telling our children they need to be saved, they have been found in Jewish old peoples homes telling the old people to repent before they die. This is what causes suspicion not deeds in the past.
Incidentally you mentioned the Jehovah's Witnesses as being wrong, however they found the courage  in Nazi Germany to stand up for those beliefs and their pacifism when they could have walked away, they paid a terrible price for that. I've mentioned my admiration for the Quakers before, to me they typify how one lives a good life without disrespecting others, they don't push their beliefs on anyone but go about making the world that bit better for others of whatever religion or not, their 'services' are quiet contemplation, no bothering g-d with prayers for this and that, just the seeking of G-ds Grace and calm spirit. That's the way to get converts, to live a life that inspires.
I don't suppose you realise it but when someone describes us as 'the Jew' it sends shivers down our backs, it's how the anti Semites describe us, we aren't 'the Jew' we are a people chosen by G-d, we didn't chose him we were chosen, it's a heavy burden but there is a reason we continue over the hard centuries despite everything and that's because we have Covenant with G-d, neither side has broken it and it's not for other men to say it's been broken or been changed, it hasn't. Forgiveness from G-d has always been there for us if we want it, we don't need to be 'saved', we don't encourage people to join us on what is a difficult path, we acknowledge that ours isn't the only path, we always have, we don't feel the need to think atheists, agnostics and those of other faiths are wrong.
Blaming 'satan' is an excuse I feel for the doings of men, our suspicion lies in many Christians preaching to us, telling us to be 'saved' telling us we must repent etc etc, it lies in people telling us what our writings actually mean rather than what we ourselves over centuries, millennia actually, of learning, studying and arguing, know! It's hard I know when you think you've found the perfect martial art, the perfect car the perfect belief system not to shout to everyone but really we all have to find those things for ourselves, what you believe is right for you, it's not right for others, they won't join you however much you preach, cajole, threaten even because G-d made us how he wants us. I don't read nor have ever read ( nor will read) the 'New Testament', I haven't read 50 Shades of Grey either for the same reason, it doesn't interest me. To pray I change my mind and convert would be an insult to G-d,' he made me according to his will'
Finally I will return your blessing as I should. May Hashem give you good health and a good livelihood; may Hashem fulfill the requests of your heart for the good; may Hashem give you the strength to do many mitzvos; ; may you have "nachas" (satisfaction and pleasure) from your children; may Hashem watch over you; and "lech l'shalom" - may you journey to shalom.
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#35
Quote:Actually no we don't have suspicion towards Christianity due to the atrocities committed in the past, the problem we have is that Christians seem intent on converting us, that's where the suspicion lies.
Perhaps this is how you feel personally, but I've known many Jews who felt as I've described.   And I really can't blame them except to say they don't understand Christianity or how to distinguish from counterfeit models.
Quote:The constant telling us we need to be 'saved', that we need to 'find' Jesus. I'm sorry but non Christians really don't need to be saved or find anyone.

You do need to be 'saved', as do all non-Christians.  And that is part of Christianity in that we share our faith with love, not at the point of a threat.  It is the non-Christians choice to accept or decline.  I will not be held accountable for the actions of someone claiming to be a Christian yet doesn't follow the teachings of Christ.  Christ taught to love and pray for your enemies (those that despitefully use you).  So someone that doesn't follow the teachings of Yeshua, yet calls themselves a Christian, aren't really a Christian now are they.  And some of the responsibility falls on people who believe they are when they clearly aren't following the teachings of the Word.  A person can call themselves a chair.  Part of the blame can rightly be placed on the person thinking they are a chair when clearly the evidence shows they are not.  I would submit that it is easier to think that they are a chair rather than look at the reasons they really aren't a chair.

The nation of Israel was suppose to bring the oracles of God to the rest of mankind.  They failed to do so.  They have temporarily been removed from that mission and the gentiles (and Messianic Jews) have been grafted into the olive tree.  I say temporarily because at some point the nation of Israel will recognize Yeshua as their Messiah.  144,000 will preach as did Paul in the first century.  Again that is choice to believe or decline. 
Quote:You say that yours is the correct version of Christianity that the others are just 'pretenders' but that's where the nub lies, they say the same about you, each is sure they are the only way and the rest are wrong.

The proof as they say is in the pudding.  As Yeshua teaches, you will know them by their fruits.  Christians die for their faith, they don't kill for it.  That is history.  As pointed out above, anyone can claim to be anything.  What is actually done can speak louder than what is actually said.  So lets use the real world as a prime example.  You've got folks in your neck of the woods with a pretty violent history 'in the name of religion'.  They kill each other because they differ in their beliefs.  So that's on one side.  On the other is me (and a lot of people like me) and you.  We don't agree on this topic.  Yet I am not plotting your destruction.  Rather I've publicly stated that I love you, pray for you and bless you and additionally for all the nation of Israel.  And that of course is sincere.  So which group are Christians and which group is a phony?  Who espouses to the teachings of Messiah and who pays it lip service and uses it as an excuse? 

2 Timothy 4: 1-5

I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
5 But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.

Matthew 24: 4-5

4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
Two thousand years ago wise men sought Christ, wise men still do.

Techniques are situational, principles are universal.

Fast as the wind, quiet as the forest, aggressive as fire, and immovable as a mountain.

He who gets there first with the most...wins!

Minimal force may not be minimum force!

We don't rise to the occasion...we sink to the level of our training.


Reply
#36
I'm sorry, you will be offended, but your understanding of Judaism is seriously flawed. As for being 'saved, no, that is your opinion, nothing more nothing less than an opinion. You are no different from every other person calling themselves a Christian. You have a belief and that belief is that only you are right, so it is with many others. However you do 'plot' my destruction because you wish me to no longer be what I am, one of G-ds people, that would indeed be a destruction of me, you want that I should break the Covenant, along with my people, with G-d. You want to destroy us, you seek to do what the Nazis, the Inquisition and many others could not do, to destroy the Covenant between G-d and his people. You are seeking the destruction of Israel because for us to abandon the Covenant will mean exactly that. The Messiah will come as prophesied, we have been promised and we will wait. We are forgiven our sins because we only have to ask and be sincere, it has always been so.
I'm sorry that you think you are following Hashem because truly you are not, you are following the ways of men such as Paul who have sculpted and made your religion. Your 'church' is a man made one with all the failings of men, it doesn't have to be a bad thing at all, but to decide the Jews failed....what makes you think that? ....and you have taken over is arrogance of the first order. I'm sorry but it is, I understand how the Native Americans must have felt when the white men landed on their shores to be killed enslaved and 'converted only to be told it was for their own good. Likewise the slaves from Africa thought to be godless and heathen. I'm sorry that you feel superior to us, that we are 'the Jew', a lesser being you must bring into the light, I'm sorry too that we will always disappoint you because we are the people of G-d not man, you have chosen G-d but G-d has chosen us and we will never break that relationship we have with him for men.
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#37
(10-17-2015, 03:33 PM)Tez Wrote: I'm sorry, you will be offended...

No I will not be offended.  Offense is not the way of a Christian. 

Quote:...but your understanding of Judaism is seriously flawed.

I know quite a bit more about Judaism than I've discussed.  But that is another chapter of my life that is in the past. 

Quote: As for being 'saved, no, that is your opinion, nothing more nothing less than an opinion

I see it as the saving Grace of our Lord rather than an opinion.  It is something you'll have to take up with him.  I merely present the choice and open the door. 

Quote:You are no different from every other person calling themselves a Christian.

I've been clear as to what the differences are between a true Christian and someone using the name with an agenda. 

Quote:However you do 'plot' my destruction because you wish me to no longer be what I am, one of G-ds people, that would indeed be a destruction of me, you want that I should break the Covenant, along with my people, with G-d. You want to destroy us, you seek to do what the Nazis, the Inquisition and many others could not do, to destroy the Covenant between G-d and his people.

I think the offense is actually in your heart when you try to compare a Christian with a Nazi.  One loves and prays for you, the other wanted you dead.  And you unfortunately won't agree, but I don't desire you to break your covenant with God but rather to understand what the covenant actually is and what it's intended purpose was. 

Quote:The Messiah will come as prophesied...

He already has as I've detailed on a previous page in this thread.  There isn't anyone coming to again fulfill everything Yeshua already has fulfilled.  It only needed to be done once.  And in the words of Yeshua as in the words of the high priest during the yearly trip to the holy of holies, "It is finished". 

Quote:I'm sorry that you feel superior to us

You are putting words into my mouth that I've never stated.  You are ascribing an emotion I've never expressed.  I feel superior to no one, nor should I.  On the contrary, the more I experience the more I feel humbled at the grace the Lord has shown me.  Of his blessings in my life.  I was an unworthy sinner that He chose to save through his grace as explained in detail in the Old Testament (your Torah and the Prophets and the Psalms) as well as the New Testament.

It is your choice to accept that the Messiah has already come.  Many Jews have done this already through the centuries and what led to the Christian church.  I am not ashamed of my faith and gladly proclaim it to one and all.  I don't force it on anyone but I don't hide it either to be politically correct.  It is your choice alone to accept or reject.  It is between you and our Creator. 

Smile
Two thousand years ago wise men sought Christ, wise men still do.

Techniques are situational, principles are universal.

Fast as the wind, quiet as the forest, aggressive as fire, and immovable as a mountain.

He who gets there first with the most...wins!

Minimal force may not be minimum force!

We don't rise to the occasion...we sink to the level of our training.


Reply
#38
It certainly is between me and our Creator, neither you nor any man has the right to judge another. When each of us stands to be judged by him I wonder will you hold the same views or will you cry with remorse, time will tell. To say that all non Christians need to be saved is judging people which is not something anyone other than G-d will do, to say the Dalai Lama among other good and true people needs to be saved is indeed quite breathtakingly arrogant, who's to say he isn't the one who is right? perhaps we all are because we try to live a moral and good life. Besides, what are the non Christians to be saved from? You say you 'know' about Judaism but do you understand it, do you love it, do you know in your heart what it means to be a Jew, what a glorious and wonderful thing it is? does your heart soar towards G-d when the Shabbat candles are lit? I suspect not, yours is book learning, the reading of words not hearts and words, by those who look to indoctrinate not educate.
I didn't actually compare Christians to Nazis you know, you have read it incorrectly. You have your opinion on the Covenant, it is only an opinion, it can be nothing else. It is your opinion that the Messiah has been, the fact the world has carried on for two thousand years shows he hasn't but I can understand your wish for it to have been true and of course your opinion is as valid as anyone's but still just an opinion. To say you want to save us, to pray for us and bless us, is in fact saying you think that we are lesser people because we aren't Christians ( and Christians that you approve of at that) your missionary zeal doesn't let you see that it comes across that way, you think you are 'helping us' as we would help an animal that needed rescuing. We pity the animal, we care for it and find it a home, this is what you would do to non Christians, to my Hindu Gurkha friends, my Jewish family, the Dali Lama and the Buddhist monks who care for the poor, my Sikh friends who believe in living honestly and caring for others, the Zoroastrians, a religion as old if not older than mine whose tenets include 'Good Thoughts, Good Words, Good Deeds'. You have no right to judge these people as needing to be saved, G-d made them too as he wanted them, he listens to them as much as to you. Declare your message by all means but remember you have no monopoly on the truth. What you believe is right and correct for you but the rest of us, no, we have our calling too, our path isn't your path though they may run parallel.
http://www.beliefnet.com/columnists/virt...jesus.html
http://www.sullivan-county.com/z/os.htm
https://outreachjudaism.org/outreach-jud...for-jesus/
And finally https://outreachjudaism.org/why-doesnt-j...messiah-1/
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#39
(10-17-2015, 09:25 PM)Tez Wrote: It certainly is between me and our Creator, neither you nor any man has the right to judge another.

Nor have I judged you.  That isn't within my auspice. 

Quote:To say that all non Christians need to be saved is judging people which is not something anyone other than G-d will do...

You're statement doesn't make any sense.  God is the one that judges, not men.  He is the one that saves, not men.  Yeshua came for ALL mankind, Jew and gentile.  But He also gave them the choice to accept or reject Him.   Christians are simply the ones that have accepted. 

Quote:...to say the Dalai Lama among other good and true people needs to be saved is indeed quite breathtakingly arrogant...

No, it isn't.  The fact that there are no good people isn't my view, it's Gods view.

Isaiah 53:6

All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Isaiah 64:6

But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

The word 'all' is inclusive of everyone.  And it should be stressed that the term 'filthy rag' in the Hebrew is the equivalent of a woman's menstrual rag.  This is how a Holy God sees our very best efforts, which is why we needed the Messiah to be our sacrificial lamb.  Which is why Isaiah describes the way in which the Messiah would suffer and die a thousand years before crucifixion was a form of execution.  So there ARE no 'good' people according to Scripture.  Not you, not me and not the Dali Lama.  Not my viewpoint, it's Scripture.  Again the choice is there to accept or reject. 

Quote:Declare your message by all means but remember you have no monopoly on the truth.

God does have the monopoly on truth.  And it's in the Scripture for one and all. 


Smile
Two thousand years ago wise men sought Christ, wise men still do.

Techniques are situational, principles are universal.

Fast as the wind, quiet as the forest, aggressive as fire, and immovable as a mountain.

He who gets there first with the most...wins!

Minimal force may not be minimum force!

We don't rise to the occasion...we sink to the level of our training.


Reply
#40
Do you realise how much hatred it sounds as if you are holding for the human race? Have you had such a bad life that you believe that G-d thinks of us as filthy rags? Yours is not the G-d of love and the father looking after his children bringing them to adulthood, it's a god who hates his creations. That is actually one of the saddest things I've ever read, I'm sorry that life has lead you to such a conclusion.
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