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Going Downhill Fast
#11
(09-24-2015, 04:46 AM)Tez Wrote: I'm away now for a couple of weeks holiday...

I hope you have a wonderful time Smile

I'll post this now as it is on my mind:

Quote:There is absolutely no way that any person has fulfilled the prophecies for the 'messiah'...


Again with the greatest respect, this is inaccurate.  Yeshua fulfilled a plethora of Old Testament prophecies.  As I mentioned briefly above, Messiah was foretold to have died by crucifixion:

Psalm 22:16

For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.

17 I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me.
18 They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.

Crucifixion was not a form of capital punishment until 1000 years later under the Roman government.  Additionally, it was common practice to break the legs of the condemned after they had been crucified, yet Yeshua's legs were not broken. 

John 20:25-27

 The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.

26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

John 19:33-36

But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs:

34 But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.
35 And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe.
36 For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken.

Here is a list of just 44 of them:

Link
Two thousand years ago wise men sought Christ, wise men still do.

Techniques are situational, principles are universal.

Fast as the wind, quiet as the forest, aggressive as fire, and immovable as a mountain.

He who gets there first with the most...wins!

Minimal force may not be minimum force!

We don't rise to the occasion...we sink to the level of our training.


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#12
This is a subject on which we will never agree I'm afraid. it's interesting to discuss difference etc but we will never have agreement, I do find though that when non Jews try to argue with Jew about Jewish subjects it's a bit odd, it's like my arguing with Americans about American subjects having never been to America. All I can say is that you don't read things the way we do and the way they were meant to be read so I doubt agreement can be reached.
http://jewsforjudaism.org/knowledge/arti...f-texting/

http://www.jewfaq.org/mashiach.htm
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#13
There have been people (atheist, Muslim, Jew etc) that have simply asked the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob to show them the truth.  And he has.  One has to be willing to accept His truth however regardless of preconceived ideas or man-made traditions.
Two thousand years ago wise men sought Christ, wise men still do.

Techniques are situational, principles are universal.

Fast as the wind, quiet as the forest, aggressive as fire, and immovable as a mountain.

He who gets there first with the most...wins!

Minimal force may not be minimum force!

We don't rise to the occasion...we sink to the level of our training.


Reply
#14
The truth is very simple, 'treat everyone as you wish to be treated, the rest is commentary'. Religions are man made, they are like petrol ( gas to you), there's different brands but they all do the same job, people can also be moral, good people without any religion at all. It's none of our business how people live or what they believe, we should be taking care of how we live before we start preaching to others. I'm Jewish, it's me, it's not for everyone, it's not right for everyone, it's not the only choice around but that's not for me to criticise or even worry about. To each his own.
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#15
I'm truly sorry you feel that way.  Shalom.
Two thousand years ago wise men sought Christ, wise men still do.

Techniques are situational, principles are universal.

Fast as the wind, quiet as the forest, aggressive as fire, and immovable as a mountain.

He who gets there first with the most...wins!

Minimal force may not be minimum force!

We don't rise to the occasion...we sink to the level of our training.


Reply
#16
Why would you be sorry? What you believe is right for you, what I believe is right for me, others have different beliefs which are as equally valid as either of ours. I've never though G-d was so small minded that he only pays attention to one set of people. He has made us as he wants us to be. I'm a Jew I will never be anything else.
Rabbi Simlai taught : Six hundred and thirteen commandments were given to Moses.
Then David reduced them to eleven in Psalm 15, beginning "He who follows integrity, who does what is right and speaks the truth in his heart"
Micah reduced them to three (Micah 6:8) "Act justly, love mercy, and walk humbly with your G-d"
Then came Isaiah and reduced them to two ( Isaiah 56:1) "Keep justice and act with integrity"
Amos reduced them to one (Amos5:4) "Seek me and live"
Habakkuk also contained them in one (Habakkuk 2:4) "But the righteous shall live by his faith"
Akiba taught " The great principle of the Torah is expressed in the commandment "Love your neighbour as you love yourself; I am the Lord" (Leviticus 19:18
Bur Ben Azai taught a greater principle (Genesis 5:1) "This is the book of the generations of man. When G-d created man, he made him in the likeness of G-d"
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#17
Personally I think that mankind did invent religion. I do not think that man invented God though. I think initially religion was simply mans struggle to comprehend and communicate with God. A humans limited response to something eternal and incomprehensible. The Bible admits:

1 Corinthians 13:12King James Version (KJV)

12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

Conrad and I were just talking about the differences between people the other day. We are each unique and thus communicate with one another differently. For example I would communicate with my wife much differently than I would a stranger. So I think that God communicates to each of us in a way that resonates with us in a special way. So we all will have a unique perspective and belief.
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#18
(10-10-2015, 10:58 AM)Instructor Wrote: Personally I think that mankind did invent religion.  I do not think that man invented God though.  I think initially religion was simply mans struggle to comprehend and communicate with God.  A humans limited response to something eternal and incomprehensible.  The Bible admits:

1 Corinthians 13:12King James Version (KJV)

12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

Conrad and I were just talking about the differences between people the other day.  We are each unique and thus communicate with one another differently.  For example I would communicate with my wife much differently than I would a stranger.  So I think that God communicates to each of us in a way that resonates with us in a special way.  So we all will have a unique perspective and belief.

Are you suggesting there is more than one way to God?  The Bible is pretty clear on that topic:

John 14:6

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Jesus is the way, not a way. 

I agree that religion is man-made and every religion has a common point i.e. works.  That is what separates Christianity and makes it not a religion, but rather a relationship.  In other words, religion (works) is man's attempt to reach God, Christianity (grace) as a relationship is God's attempt to reach man.
Two thousand years ago wise men sought Christ, wise men still do.

Techniques are situational, principles are universal.

Fast as the wind, quiet as the forest, aggressive as fire, and immovable as a mountain.

He who gets there first with the most...wins!

Minimal force may not be minimum force!

We don't rise to the occasion...we sink to the level of our training.


Reply
#19
Context is always the kicker. When Jesus said "I am the way" it was in the context of his discussion with the disciples that how the world would know we are in him is that we love one another. The way, therefore, is love.

Paul repositions things to suggest that we interpret Jesus' death as the atonement for sin. Oddly modern Christianity has focused more on our verbal acceptance of Paul's proposition than Jesus' sense that action is the true telling of our faith.

As a result Christianity is split in many ways, and the world looks at us as confused hypocrites. I guess what I'm suggesting is less finger pointing and more thoughtful congruency between faith and action no matter what tradition.
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#20
To be honest, I am hesitant to reply.  Not because I am afraid, but because in my experience these kinds of discussions are difficult to have over the internet.  Some things are bigger than the medium of a BBS.  Therefore any attempt to discuss them in depth is hindered (sometimes tragically) by the limitations of the medium.  In the end, intimacy is about "in-to-me-see," and that sometimes requires face-to-face conversations.  And what can be more intimate than my deepest beliefs?


Still, I have no problem sharing what I believe.  So, I will try to expound a little here on John 14.6 and John's understanding of Jesus as the "Word of the Father, now in flesh appearing."


I guess I would start with a quote from the first chapter of the Gospel of John. Most translations say “Word” where I have inserted the transliterated Greek word “Logos.” I am doing that on purpose because the concept of “Logos” had significant relevance to both the Jewish and Greco-Roman world of the New Testament era. Exploring this concept a little bit will help demonstrate how every person has some “light" from the Logos, and that it is our response to the light that forms the basis of God's judgment response to the light that one has that forms the basis of God’s judgment:


In the beginning was the Logos, and the Logos was with God, and the Logos was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made, without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it... The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world... The Logos became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth. (John 1:1-5,9,14)


John the Apostle (one of Jesus’ closest personal followers) wrote this passage. It is important to put one’s self in John’s place. He is trying to communicate to the world something of what he (and many others) had personally experienced and witnessed. How does John communicate to the world who he, based on his personal experience, understands this Jesus of Nazareth to be? In a flash of inspiration (being well educated and familiar with the world of his hearers), he uses the already existing concept of “logos” to communicate his message to his audience.


Logos” does not merely equate to our English concept of “word.” It is deeper than that. A word can be spoken or not. Therefore it may exist or it may not exist. “Logos” means, “the inner discourse of the mind.” In other words, “logos” means “reason.” Sometimes we may choose to express our inner reasoning, sometimes we may not. But it is always there. This is perhaps one key element of what the Bible means when it says that we are “created in God’s image.” God is not just existent. He is aware that He exists. He has an inner discourse going on within Himself. There are (of course), differences. God is eternal, therefore His “Logos” is eternal. And from the Being of the Father and the Inner Reasoning of the Father, the Holy Spirit proceeds. This is the Trinity.


This same paradigm is at work within people. I cannot really know you except by how you express (through communication) your inner reasoning. From your core being an inner discourse is generated (your logos). As you express that “logos” to me, I gain something of your presence or perceive something of your spirit. So, there is the Being that is you, the Logos of you, and the Presence/Spirit of you. Though in some ways these three are distinct, yet there is only one you.


But it is your “Inner Reasoning,” your “Logos,” that is essential if I am going to get to know you. If you do not express that inner reasoning through some form of communication, I can never know you. I never see the “real you,” your being. I only see what you reveal to me by what you communicate. The same is true of God. We know God by how He chooses to express His Logos. The Logos reveals the Father, which enables us to experience His Presence/Spirit. That is why Jesus said, on multiple occasions, He who has seen me has seen the Father (John 12:44-45, John 14:9).


Ignatius (who died around 107 AD) was a very early Christian who knew the Apostle John and was directly taught by him. Ignatius summed this up in his letter to the Magnesians, which was probably written just before Ignatius was martyred as a Christian. In Chapter 8 of that letter, Ignatius says:


...there is One God, the Almighty, who has manifested Himself by Jesus Christ His Son, who is His Word, not spoken, but essential.


In other words, the Logos is essential to God’


So, that is an introduction to the biblical idea of “Logos.” But John (in chapter 1 of his Gospel, as I quoted above) makes it very clear that the Logos “lights every man,” that the Logos is the source of life, and that life itself is a “light” or symbol meant to communicate something to us. Without it, we can never know anything transcendent.


This is what Jesus means when he says, I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father but by me. But even this verse has a context, and this one verse (written by John the Apostle) cannot be interpreted independently of John’s comprehensive view of the Logos. I will try to make my point clear: I believe John 14:6 wholeheartedly. But, John 14:6 was true before Jesus of Nazareth ever walked on the earth. No one can know the Father except by responding to the Father’s revelation of Himself, which is the Logos/Word. Just as I cannot know you unless you reveal yourself to me, so I cannot know God unless He reveals Himself to me (and I respond to that revelation).


And every human has some Revelation. Some Word, some Logos, some Light. Something of God’s Voice gets through to everyone. But are we listening? I do not know what your heart has heard. That it has heard something, and that you are accountable for whatever you have heard, is a clear biblical teaching. Jesus makes this clear:


As for the person who hears my words (expressed proclamations) but does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I did not come to judge the world but to save it. There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accepts my words (expressed proclamations); that very logos/word/revelation which I spoke will condemn him at the last day (John 12:47-48)


In other words, it is not my expressed proclamations that matter, but whatever “light/logos/revelation” that gets through to your heart that matters. And I never really know what that is, so I never need to get judgmental. Human judgmentalism is often based on ignorance because (unless we know the person very, very well) we never really know what “logos” another person has. But everyone has some, and is responsible for what they have, not what they don’t have. This is why the Apostle Paul says, in Romans 2:6-8:


God will give to each person according to what he has done. To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality, he will give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking and reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.


That is the biblical picture, and that is how the earliest Christians tended to understand the issue. I mentioned Ignatius, a very early Christian who wrote just after the New Testament was completed. But there are many more early Christians who expressed these same thoughts.


So, the standard is that each person will be judged based on their trust/faith response to the light they have, not based on the light they didn't have. But at the heart of the Christian faith is this hard truth: In Jesus of Nazareth all the fulness of the Deity dwells in bodily form. (Colossians 2.8-10). Therefore, to see him is to see the Father. (John 14.9). Therefore, those who look at Jesus, are aware of his message and his claims, and turn away from them are in a challenging position. Jesus himself said, “Those who love the light come into the light.” (John 3).


Clement of Alexandria said that the Logos was the Instructor of all mankind, and that His goal was as follows:


The Instructor is practical, not theoretical. His aim is to improve the soul, not teach information, to train the soul up into virtue, not to a merely intellectual life... our Educator, being practical, first exhorts to the attainment of right dispositions and character... The Instructor, by thus strengthening our souls, and by His benign commands, as by gentle medicines, guides the sick to the perfect knowledge of the truth. There is a wide difference between health and knowledge. For learning produces knowledge, but healing produces health. One who is ill will not therefore learn properly any branch of instruction until he is quite well. (The Instructor, Book I, chapter one)


This understanding correlates well with Romans 2:6-8, which I mentioned above. So, a Christian world-view sees “Logic” as only being “logical” if it is personal, moral, and the governor of matter. Many in the modern world see “logic” as a by-product of matter with no transcendent quality. Furthermore, either that transcendent Logos of God became the human we know as Jesus Christ or it did not. The difference between Jesus's ethics and the est ethics of other teachers is not really the main point. The main point is that Jesus IS the Logos, while every other great ethical/moral/spiritual insight was ultimately planted by the Logos. And no one comes to the Father without that Logos.


Again, a Christian world-view sees “Logic” as only being “logical” if it is personal, moral, and the governor of matter. Many in the modern world see “logic” as a by-product of matter with no transcendent quality. These two world-views can never be reconciled. They will always clash. Either there is a transcendent Logos or not. But the evidence is significant in the areas of medicine and physics that suggest that “Mind” is not limited to Matter but rather is the ruler and governor of it. To reject this transcendent Logos is to crucify it. He has always been “the Lamb slain from before the foundation of the world.” (Revelation 13:8) If “Logic” is not self-authenticating and transcendent, then it is not really “logical.” It is merely a biological, neurological, and chemical by-product of my particular DNA, as yours is of yours. The only point in engaging in discussion is if both of us admit a transcendent standard to which both of us are hoping to more closely correspond.


So how do I serve as a witness to this transcendent standard? My job as a Christian is to understand the Logos as best as I can, to trust in it, and to seek to communicate that grace and that truth to others. And it is a joy to do so.


As Clement said, we are in poor health. Until we are healthier, we cannot even begin to think rightly. Hence all right thinking starts with right values. I must be more loving. But how do I define “loving?” That one debate alone brings to the forefront the entire cultural war between the two world-views.


There is an excellent book Dr. Armand M. Nicholi, Jr. He is an associate clinical professor of psychiatry at Harvard Medical School and Massachusetts General Hospital. The book is called, “The Question of God.” In short, Nicholi posits that the question of God is the most important question mankind has ever asked. Though Nicholi takes no position on the matter, he compares the writings of Sigmund Freud and C.S. Lewis as a way to frame the issue and allow each of his students to grapple with the answer for himself.
Martial Arts done well leads to a more virtuous life because everyone is fighting something.

"If your eye is single, your whole body will be full of light.  But if your eye is evil, even the light that is within you will be darkness.  If the light that is within you is darkness, how great is that darkness?"  (Jesus of Nazareth)
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