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Why do TMAs have more difficulty in the ring/octagon?
#1
Lively topic on a different board.  Populated by a couple of folks that seemed to be unable to establish the difference between reality and controlled environments.  I thought it interesting enough to discuss here on MW.  Here were some of my thoughts;

Quote:I'll offer some points of consideration. First, a TMA may have a specific overall slant that it focuses on in training. For example, TKD specializes in kicking. This can be great in a competition such as kick boxing or TKD specific competition. Of course, since it doesn't have a specific component for training on the ground it generally doesn't do well in a venue that allows it. The opposite would apply as well if a BJJ competitor entered a TKD or kickboxing tournament but the 'ground-n-pound' or submissions weren't allowed.

Another consideration are the inclusion of rules, any rules. Karate can, and is an effective form of self defense and can be altered to fit into a sport venue. And using karate as a further example, serious karate training has a plethora of body-unfriendly movements designed to injure the other person. But these movements can't be done in a competition format. Thus many of the principles/techniques from the TMA aren't allowed within the context of competition. Again, using BJJ as a counter-example, removing takedowns and submissions would drastically limit and alter the art.


Quote:As I mentioned in my post, many of the elements of a TMA are removed in order to subscribe to the artificial rule set imposed in a competition. The mind set is also different. In a MMA match, taking someone to the ground or being taken to the ground is part of the game. It can be quite different in TMA training. For example, in the context in which I train/teach, being taken to the ground is considered deadly force. As a result, deadly force is authorized as a response. This means taking any action/movement to cause great bodily harm up to and including death on the person so taking you to the ground. Gouging the eyes, striking the throat, crushing the testicles, striking to or grasping the back of the neck/spine area is frowned upon generally. This doesn't mean one is superior to the other in-an-of-themselves, only that they are two different things that occur in two different venues. If the rules were changed, the results may change as well.
Two thousand years ago wise men sought Christ, wise men still do.

Techniques are situational, principles are universal.

Fast as the wind, quiet as the forest, aggressive as fire, and immovable as a mountain.

He who gets there first with the most...wins!

Minimal force may not be minimum force!

We don't rise to the occasion...we sink to the level of our training.


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#2
The reason I no longer post on the other board is the attitude of the BJJ guys who don't understand the difference between sport based karate and reality based karate. In fact that is the reason I don't teach kids. The karate I teach is designed to kill and maim people. As a result I teach a graduated scale of violence that starts with de escalation, moves into restraint and control but finishes where we don't want to go.

Part of the allure of karate is working out how the kata conceals the lethal techniques. Of course some of the BJJ guys dismiss kata as useless trivia and they are right. Kata is pretty much useless if you want to compete in the ring.
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#3
I remember the first televised MMA offering with one of the Gracie's (don't remember who) was up against a supposed karate master and it was billed as a no rules fight. Anyway, Gracie gets the mount position and his one arm is holding the guy down while he's throwing punches with the other. Now I'm sitting there and waiting for the "master" on the bottom to either punch the throat, jab the eyes, rip the ear or some other nasty technique, after all it's billed as anything goes. Long story short, the karate guy gets choked out with his Gi and we come to find out that there was a set of rules in place and set up by the Gracie's. After all it was their idea for the whole MMA thing and they made a fortune from it. It didn't all that long for folks to get the hang of what they were all about and you notice how they were getting beat after that.
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#4
I think what's been said pretty well covers it. The only other thing I'd offer is the singularity of purpose in training. It's not just that there are rules, it's that the MMA fighter trains specifically for those rules while TMA does not. Any time one person trains for the rules of an event exclusively and another does not, there is an advantage.
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#5
I think it goes beyond rules. If you train for competition, whether it be MMA or a single discipline, you have to put in a lot of time and effort to get to a high level of proficiency. If competition is high on your agenda you will do that and the chances are in normal competition, not necessarily top level, you will probably do reasonably well. In all my years of training I have only come across a handful of people interested in serious competition. If you now look at how many TMA people want to learn another set of skills to seriously compete at the level of say UFC that number would be almost zero. These days, if you wanted to compete in MMA you would simply join a gym that trains for MMA so in the future I doubt you will see any TMA people in UFC.

In other places there are people who maintain that unless you are proving your style against all-comers you can't know if your training is effective, but to me that makes no sense. I am not training to fight other martial artists. I'm really not training to fight at all. If anything I am training more and more not to fight.

What I teach is totally at odds with competition style fighting. For example if someone was looking at fighting me, chances are I would use one of the entry techniques I teach for a pre-emptive strike. In the ring, that would be akin to hitting your opponent before the opening bell. That, I'm sure wouldn't go down well with the referee or the fans watching. Then if there wasn't the opportunity for an early strike I sure as hell wouldn't be walking into my opponent's defensive position. He would have to make the first move and attack me. Again, the ref would be penalising me for lack of aggression for not going in to attack my opponent. All that is before you look at whether or not you would use a technique outside the rules of competition.
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#6
I think what a lot of people forget when they say that 'TMAs' don't do well in MMA is that no single style of anything does well, it's that mixing of arts and styles that makes MMA. The other thing people forget is that there are relatively few professional MMA fighters, most people are martial artists who have trained some MMA and just fancy a go to see if they can do it or because they enjoy the full contact fighting.
Perhaps I can say this here where I won't be abused for being British (among other things)...that the UFC isn't the be all and end all of MMA! For most people who compete in MMA it's a hobby, they compete a couple of times a year the rest of the time they train their usual styles. For most people training their own style and training MMA for a competition isn't a big deal. MMA comps can be fun, you get to find out if you can take a punch or two and best of all you learn new techniques while having a beer with your opponent after the fight. The amount of people who are aiming to get into the UFC are about one in several million, for everyone else, it's fun, yes really, fun!
I do know more than one person who has fought in the UFC but that's because I've been in a position to, most people won't. From how MMA was 15 years ago when I first 'met' it, I'd say that these days you have to start young and train only in MMA if you want to make a career out of it, there's the facilities to do that now there wasn't then so people did come from single styles adding others as they went along. Tis all different now and it makes me feel old lol.
What works in MMA is what works for the fighter, it's far simpler than many make out, you can if you look closely in slo-mo that many different styles are involved but it really is mixed up which is why I've never understood the 'you don't see X style in the UFC' arguments or 'Y style doesn't work in UFC', well dur! that's because it's mixed ie tumbled together, mixed up, bits from here, bits from there martial arts.
As for 'proving your style' I think there's always been a certain amount of machismo flowing around some people who feel the need to 'prove' themselves and I do believe it's proving yourself they actually mean rather than proving your style! If you have it in you to fight you can ( and probably will) whether you train martial arts or not. They don't actually mean testing the style, they mean 'can YOU fight' and of course the style they do is always 'best'. Blowing out everyone else's candle doesn't mean yours burns brighter.
The truth I think is that it doesn't really matter so much what style you do, it's that within you that makes you effective in a fight and of course if you can avoid a fight so much the better. I would say though that training with rules doesn't mean you can't fight without them, people are adaptable enough to be able to switch from rules to 'Av some' without any difficulty.
Didn't mean to write so much for my very first post here! I guess you know I've arrived lol.
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#7
(09-22-2015, 06:05 PM)Tez Wrote: Perhaps I can say this here where I won't be abused for being British (among other things)...that the UFC isn't the be all and end all of MMA!

I'm gonna tell Drop Bear!  Big Grin

Quote:Didn't mean to write so much for my very first post here! I guess you know I've arrived lol.

Tez has entered the building Wink
Two thousand years ago wise men sought Christ, wise men still do.

Techniques are situational, principles are universal.

Fast as the wind, quiet as the forest, aggressive as fire, and immovable as a mountain.

He who gets there first with the most...wins!

Minimal force may not be minimum force!

We don't rise to the occasion...we sink to the level of our training.


Reply
#8
Quote:Tez said:

I think what a lot of people forget when they say that 'TMAs' don't do well in MMA is that no single style of anything does well, it's that mixing of arts and styles that makes MMA.
I think this is so true.  In recent years some from TMAs have done well.  Lyoto Machida's baseline is Karate, and Ben Henderson and Anthony Pettis both have Taekwondo backgrounds.  But they had to supplement those baselines with other components to thrive in the sport of MMA.

Quote:Tez said:

I think what a lot of people forget when they say that 'TMAs' don't do well in MMA is that no single style of anything does well, it's that mixing of arts and styles that makes MMA.
I think this is so true.  In recent years some from TMAs have done well.  Lyoto Machida's baseline is Karate, and Ben Henderson and Anthony Pettis both have Taekwondo backgrounds.  But they had to supplement those baselines with other components to thrive in the sport of MMA.
Martial Arts done well leads to a more virtuous life because everyone is fighting something.

"If your eye is single, your whole body will be full of light.  But if your eye is evil, even the light that is within you will be darkness.  If the light that is within you is darkness, how great is that darkness?"  (Jesus of Nazareth)
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#9
Absolutely the reality that MMA has a variety of ranges factors into it. Again, it's what you train for.

Interestingly, I recently saw a video from Joe Rogan that backtracked a bit on his prior trash talking of TMA. With the success of TMA techniques being landed(like spinning hooks, and I can't believe I'm saying this but, front kicks) he made a bit of a concession. He conceded that one of the benefits of TMA training is singular focus. The result being that if the TMA artist takes the time to expand into other realms, he/she may have an arsenal of moves that are foreign to the practitioner solely training in the MMA sport world.
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#10
(09-22-2015, 06:05 PM)Tez Wrote: Didn't mean to write so much for my very first post here!  I guess you know I've arrived lol.

Welcome Tez. Now you're here, together we can take on the world!  Big Grin
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