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Need a HKD BB to go with your TKD BB?
#11
David knows the particular school / affiliation I had when I entered into TKD back when. It's the same dojang that now offered the weekend Hapkido seminar and testing. When I went through the curriculum and the ranks, I found that it lacked severely in real and practical self defense techniques, so I would show different applications of the given curriculum and would also offer more practical ones for replacement. Needless to say, I was chastised several times for not staying within the scope of the curriculum and when finally fed up enough with the non interest in preparing students better, I was reminded that it's a WTF / Kukkiwon school that has it's main focus on Olympic style sparring. Now here it is, some 30+ years later and now they want to change direction and I'll tell you why. From those heydays of tournaments, at least one a month, big bucks were made and that was the life blood of all of the schools. Apparently, those tournament seemingly have washed up and the gravy train has left the station. Oh, they still have a couple during the year, but nothing like the Brinks truck of those days. So what's a school to do? Well we saw the big testing a year or two ago in Vegas, put on by the Kukkiwon and everybody who could think, knew it was nothing more than a solid money grab. When your at 1st to 3rd Dan and you didn't even have to physically show up to test, just send in the check, what else could it be. So offering a weekend seminar and testing, to folks that had absolutely no previous training, falls into the same boat IMO. Now if you've had some training along the way and want to be evaluated along with 2 days of specific training, that's another story, but it's doubtful that this school and students fall / fell into that category.

The vast majority pf WTF / Kukkiwon practitioners only know and understand the sport aspect of TKD, operative word there being "vast". I'm sure there are those instructors / schools that have seen the forest for the tree's and embraced a more plentiful self defense curriculum and hopefully we'll start to see a shift by those other schools into the realm of what's real and training for it will happen. At least the school in question has started in that direction, with two sessions weekly in Hapkido training from a certified (That's what stated on the web site) instructor from Korea.
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#12
Quote:Kong Soo Do wrote:

Would it be legitimate for a practitioner of Taekwondo that utilizes locks and throws and cavity pressing to explain to a practitioner of WTF Taekwondo that they had really only learned a small fraction of the art?

Of course it would.  Especially if the conversation was about what Taekwondo really is or ought to be.  But then I am still arguing from "within" the labels or "beneath" the labels.  There are times where such things are a necessary fight to fight.  But, in my limited experience, it seems such debates are often pointless and counterproductive in the Taekwondo community.  So I would want to get a better read on the person to see if they have ears to hear. So, if I had known the person better who said this I might have engaged him in a point-counterpoint discussion.  After all, I do believe such things can be productive when done in a meek and gentle spirit.  

Not to be too trite with a pop culture reference, but there is a line in "Pirates of the Caribbean" where Jack Sparrow is debating with Will Turner.  Sparrow says, "The only rules that really matter are these: what a man can do and what a man can't do."  In the end, I think that is what martial arts is really about.  Labels help when they clarify, but to most people today "Taekwondo" is associated pretty much with what the WTF 5th-Dan practiced.  And what I practice is not associated with what most people today associate with Taekwondo.  Is it profitable for me to or them if I try to explain all of that in a casual conversation?  Sometimes it is, but for some people if I seem to imply their art is deficient, than they get defensive and start feeling like I am walking into their dojo and spitting at their master's picture and trashing their lineage.

As for me, I KNOW my art is deficient.  So it doesn't bother me when others say things that suggest it is.  Still, in the end I am arrogant enough to believe that my approach is "better," since that is what I am practicing.  After all, if I why would I practice that way for any other reason than that I believe it is better, or at least better for what I am trying to accomplish?
Martial Arts done well leads to a more virtuous life because everyone is fighting something.

"If your eye is single, your whole body will be full of light.  But if your eye is evil, even the light that is within you will be darkness.  If the light that is within you is darkness, how great is that darkness?"  (Jesus of Nazareth)
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#13
We've just started something interesting in my classes. Once a month we combine with a school that is sport oriented. It gives my students a taste of what the competition TKD looks like and will give the other students a taste of what SD TKD looks like.

Naturally I am much more fond of traditional, SD oriented TKD. That said, I would like my students to be informed that there's more than one style of TKD out there. It will be interesting to see how this unfolds!
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#14
It should be quite interesting.  I've done something similar on a small basis as I've posted before.  It was definitely an eye opener for everyone involved.  Good to provide different perspectives.
Two thousand years ago wise men sought Christ, wise men still do.

Techniques are situational, principles are universal.

Fast as the wind, quiet as the forest, aggressive as fire, and immovable as a mountain.

He who gets there first with the most...wins!

Minimal force may not be minimum force!

We don't rise to the occasion...we sink to the level of our training.


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#15
There is a similar division in katate as is in TKD. The Japanese styles are sport oriented and the Okinawan styles are more reality based, with an overlap of course. I first recognised that there was a lot missing in Japanese Goju when I saw the work guys like George Dillman, Geoff Thompson and Iain Abernethy were doing. That was my reason for starting Aikido nearly nine years ago and changing to the study of Okinawan Goju Ryu.

Seeing that HKD had its roots in Aikido it would be fair to compare training in one with the other. Based on my previous karate background I should have been able to go off for a weekend of training and walk away with an Aikido black belt.

In the real world it took me six years of regular training to achieve my black belt in Aikido, so how about mastering all those techniques in one weekend? It took me 14 months to get to the stage that I could use my first Aikido technique (kote gaeshi) against total resistance. Over the next six years I gradually got the rest culminating with Ikkyo, or 'first technique', after seven and a half years. I doubt you could even get the mechanical moves of half of these techniques in a weekend.

A couple of years ago we had a joint class with Aikido and Hapkido guys. None of the Hapkido guys, including their 4th dan instructor could make their techniques work against a non compliant partner. So much for the claim you can get them in a weekend of training to the standard of black belt.

When I see this sort of thing happening I shake my head and roll my eyes. It puts this HKD school on the same level as the Kiai Master ...

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gEDaCIDvj6I

No wonder BJJ and MMA guys get stuck into TMA practitioners in other places.
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#16
A couple of years ago we had a joint class with Aikido and Hapkido guys. None of the Hapkido guys, including their 4th dan instructor could make their techniques work against a non compliant partner.

Interesting, can we expand upon the "non-compliant" aspect. Trying a technique on someone who is resisting is a great way to find out what your doing won't work, if your attempting to do the technique only in it's static form. It's fairly easy to nullify a technique, 1) if your prepared for it and 2) you strengthen your body (tense up) or just move your body angle when it's being applied. So just curious as to what you observed and had attempted on you and just what you did to nullify the technique.
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#17
Distraction Strikes are necessary to gain enough pliability to execute joint manipulation.
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#18
(10-01-2015, 03:28 PM)sidekick Wrote: Interesting, can we expand upon the "non-compliant" aspect. Trying a technique on someone who is resisting is a great way to find out what your doing won't work, if your attempting to do the technique only in it's static form. It's fairly easy to nullify a technique, 1) if your prepared for it and 2) you strengthen your body (tense up) or just move your body angle when it's being applied. So just curious as to what you observed and had attempted on you and just what you did to nullify the technique.

It depends on the level of training. We constantly train techniques slowly against gradually increased resistance. Naturally this is just a training tool. In real life you are going to use the strikes first and you are normally never going to go straight to the hold, with certain exceptions of course. But the reasoning is that if you can make your techniques work slowly, without using strength, on someone who is genuinely trying as hard as they can to resist, then you will be able to rely on that technique in the real world. 

There are a few highly trained people that I cannot move when they employ total resistance. Here I am talking about static form as you describe, but against all lower grades and untrained guys I can make techniques work almost all the time. Aikido is the most amazing martial art I have experienced. It has a subtlety that requires a lot of time and understanding to master. Obviously much of Aikido has to do with biomechanics but it also utilises the mind. How do you 'keep weight underside' and 'extend Ki' as instructed by Koichi Tohei? How do you 'link centres'? It took me around eight years to understand the last one.

Training slowly with softness against total resistance also gives you time to see exactly where the atemi is available and what your opponent might do to counter your technique. I am fortunate to have the Aikido instructor I do. I haven't seen anyone, apart from his instructor, do what he can do and I consider him to be one of the top martial artists in Australia. To be honest, I thought Aikido was a bit of a wank until I met this guy. This is not to say that we only train against total resistance. 'Receiving' is a huge part of Aikido. I'm not talking about the spectacular throws and falls. With receiving you are learning how to move with your partners technique into a position to reverse the technique, again something you can't possibly learn in a weekend.

I'll just go back to one point you made. You mentioned 'moving your body angle' to resist. In many instances that doesn't matter but in some cases that movement puts your partner in a position where you wouldn't use the first technique anyway. In that situation you simply change to the appropriate technique.

(10-02-2015, 12:53 PM)Instructor Wrote: Distraction Strikes are necessary to gain enough pliability to execute joint manipulation.

Certainly the case early on in training. I would suggest that as you progress it is not always the case. Unfortunately in Aikido, most schools don't teach the atemi at all and the students are surprised when their techniques, that work in class, fail when tested.
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#19
I found the following on a forum dealing with Steven Segal and what style of Aikido he does, very interesting post.

"As I said in another post, Seagal Sensei's aikido was developed through many teachers(Ishisaka, Tohei, Abe, Isoyama) but the guy he spent many hours training with and of course the guy he resembles the most is Isoyama Sensei. This comes directly from Seagal Sensei's mouth from his original forum on his web page AND it comes directly from a guy whom has studied under Isoyama Sensei since around 1958 when Isoyama Sensei left Iwama and became the head instructor in the Japanese Air Self Defense Forces at Chitose Air Base. Isoyama's aikido is DIRECTLY from Ueshiba Sensei. He and Saito Sensei were two very rare people that learned ALL of their aikido directly from the founder. Isoyama's aikido emphasizes kicks and strikes as well as very sharp movements. Very much like Seagal Sensei. Hmm, wonder why?"

Now that last sentance makes a lot of sense to me and it follows what I do and taught, but it also opens up a question of "how many different styles of Aikido are there and what are the major differences". Now I will confess that to my way of thinking, any style or system that takes years to learn and become street proficient with is wasting valuable time. If one is into just into the journey aspect and not worried about or needing the self defense equation, then the longer the better. From my perspective, a style or disipline should be able to offer their students a modicum of practical self defense techniques, that can be used, within the first 3 months of instructions.
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#20
I expect most of my students could defend themselves against unskilled attackers by green belt.
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